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The Riders should make Ricky Ray an offer he can't refuse....

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  • #61
    Originally posted by BC Green View Post
    You are missing the point

    the point being while it is possible for a player to become a professional coach

    why not wait for him to prove it by coaching for at least a year in some capacity?

    Ray himself has never been touted as a solid mentor

    his time in Toronto with Colaros and Harris was brought up as justification - but his influence on either QB would have been 0 as they had Milanovich - now a NFL QB Coach, Brady now an NFL QB coach, Maas now a CFL head coach, in the face of these accomplished coaches there was not mentor role for him -
    so the point stands that Ray - has never been considered a mentor much like Calvillo he was a great player - who never really helped develop anyone - so why anoint him a professional coach over night?

    as for guys like Hufnagel, Dickinson, and lets say Dinwiddie - all these guys were pegged from day 1 in the league as future coaches -

    another guy who has been pegged as a future coach if he wants it is Kevin Glenn

    Ray was a great QB - he could become a great coach - but he has done nothing to this point to indicate it - so go coach high school or junior or university - hone his craft PROVE he can coach

    as for Walsh? we were never discussing him - but he was a great Player he has transitioned into coaching under Trestman who unless I am mistaken dragged him around the NFL with him - and brought him into the CFL

    he right now has shown to be a solid technical coach - he needs more CFL experience - and unfortunately I don't think he can progress with McAdoo -

    but Walsh would have done well to coached at a lower level of Cdn ball prior to becoming a professional CFL coach - as would Jarious Jackson - its not about CAN a QB become a CFL coach - its about is it appropriate to simply become a professional coach - without ever having coached

    my bias is simply NEVER hire a coach - until they have coached something - this is professional football not Pop Warner - there are plenty of coaches who have proven they can coach - hire one of them - make the player coach at a lower level for a year or two - if they are good then hire them

    I'm not big into signing track stars or basketball players who have never played football to professional contracts in the CFL either

    but hiring a guy who had never been a coach before is kind of like handing a rookie player a starting role and a no cut guarantee that he will play 100% of the snaps at that position


    Last edited by Rotor; 02-28-2019, 10:06 AM.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by Rotor View Post

      You are missing the point

      the point being while it is possible for a player to become a professional coach

      why not wait for him to prove it by coaching for at least a year in some capacity?

      Ray himself has never been touted as a solid mentor

      his time in Toronto with Colaros and Harris was brought up as justification - but his influence on either QB would have been 0 as they had Milanovich - now a NFL QB Coach, Brady now an NFL QB coach, Maas now a CFL head coach, in the face of these accomplished coaches there was not mentor role for him -
      so the point stands that Ray - has never been considered a mentor much like Calvillo he was a great player - who never really helped develop anyone - so why anoint him a professional coach over night?

      as for guys like Hufnagel, Dickinson, and lets say Dinwiddie - all these guys were pegged from day 1 in the league as future coaches -

      another guy who has been pegged as a future coach if he wants it is Kevin Glenn

      Ray was a great QB - he could become a great coach - but he has done nothing to this point to indicate it - so go coach high school or junior or university - hone his craft PROVE he can coach

      as for Walsh? we were never discussing him - but he was a great Player he has transitioned into coaching under Trestman who unless I am mistaken dragged him around the NFL with him - and brought him into the CFL

      he right now has shown to be a solid technical coach - he needs more CFL experience - and unfortunately I don't think he can progress with McAdoo -

      but Walsh would have done well to coached at a lower level of Cdn ball prior to becoming a professional CFL coach - as would Jarious Jackson - its not about CAN a QB become a CFL coach - its about is it appropriate to simply become a professional coach - without ever having coached

      my bias is simply NEVER hire a coach - until they have coached something - this is professional football not Pop Warner - there are plenty of coaches who have proven they can coach - hire one of them - make the player coach at a lower level for a year or two - if they are good then hire them

      I'm not big into signing track stars or basketball players who have never played football to professional contracts in the CFL either

      but hiring a guy who had never been a coach before is kind of like handing a rookie player a starting role and a no cut guarantee that he will play 100% of the snaps at that position

      So do you think Dickenson or Dinwittie should have started coaching at a lower level than the CFL or is their CFL experience enough as a start to their coaching career? Serious question. Where should Glenn or Lulay start if they decide to follow that career path? Most former players start as positional coaches in the CFL and not always at the position they played.

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by Fullhouse View Post

        So do you think Dickenson or Dinwittie should have started coaching at a lower level than the CFL or is their CFL experience enough as a start to their coaching career? Serious question. Where should Glenn or Lulay start if they decide to follow that career path? Most former players start as positional coaches in the CFL and not always at the position they played.
        yes I do - not sure how I can say it plainer than I did my bias is to not hire someone to be a professional coach until they have actually coached something

        would you guarantee a rookie a starting role without ever seeing him play? sometimes it would work out fine some times it would suck

        Calvillo sucked as have many other players hired as coaches over the years others like Dinwiddie/Dickinson have worked out great thing is they will still work out great - maybe even better - if they coach a college or junior team for a year or two

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by Rotor View Post

          yes I do - not sure how I can say it plainer than I did my bias is to not hire someone to be a professional coach until they have actually coached something

          would you guarantee a rookie a starting role without ever seeing him play? sometimes it would work out fine some times it would suck

          Calvillo sucked as have many other players hired as coaches over the years others like Dinwiddie/Dickinson have worked out great thing is they will still work out great - maybe even better - if they coach a college or junior team for a year or two
          In what role?

          I think any all-star player / future hall-of-gamer is capable of starting at the CFL level as a positional coach.

          Coordinator? Assistant HC?. I donít want to see a rookie coach as our OC I donít care how good of a player they were.

          But it Iíll take Chick as our D-Line coach without asking him to coach at some random level before.

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by imschatz View Post

            In what role?

            I think any all-star player / future hall-of-gamer is capable of starting at the CFL level as a positional coach.

            Coordinator? Assistant HC?. I donít want to see a rookie coach as our OC I donít care how good of a player they were.

            But it Iíll take Chick as our D-Line coach without asking him to coach at some random level before.
            Being an all-star guarantees absolutely nothing when it comes to being a coach. Most of the all-star HoF kind of guys had the game come easy to them and for the most part are not very successful as coaches, but of course there are exceptions.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by lester View Post

              Being an all-star guarantees absolutely nothing when it comes to being a coach. Most of the all-star HoF kind of guys had the game come easy to them and for the most part are not very successful as coaches, but of course there are exceptions.
              Exactly.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by imschatz View Post

                In what role?

                I think any all-star player / future hall-of-gamer is capable of starting at the CFL level as a positional coach.

                Coordinator? Assistant HC?. I donít want to see a rookie coach as our OC I donít care how good of a player they were.

                But it Iíll take Chick as our D-Line coach without asking him to coach at some random level before.
                many said the exact kind of nonsense about Jurasin - and as it turned out he sucked at coaching and flamed out of it fast

                Comment


                • #68
                  almost every great NFL coach had limited or no experience as a NFL player and they were anything but great players. It's a faulty assumption to assume that great players make great coaches.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    I see Ray in a management position or maybe a broadcaster. Not a coach .

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Greenwall View Post
                      I see Ray in a management position or maybe a broadcaster. Not a coach .
                      I think Lulay would do better as a broadcaster. He is a better spoken person.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Rotor View Post

                        You are missing the point

                        the point being while it is possible for a player to become a professional coach

                        why not wait for him to prove it by coaching for at least a year in some capacity?

                        Ray himself has never been touted as a solid mentor

                        his time in Toronto with Colaros and Harris was brought up as justification - but his influence on either QB would have been 0 as they had Milanovich - now a NFL QB Coach, Brady now an NFL QB coach, Maas now a CFL head coach, in the face of these accomplished coaches there was not mentor role for him -
                        so the point stands that Ray - has never been considered a mentor much like Calvillo he was a great player - who never really helped develop anyone - so why anoint him a professional coach over night?

                        as for guys like Hufnagel, Dickinson, and lets say Dinwiddie - all these guys were pegged from day 1 in the league as future coaches -

                        another guy who has been pegged as a future coach if he wants it is Kevin Glenn

                        Ray was a great QB - he could become a great coach - but he has done nothing to this point to indicate it - so go coach high school or junior or university - hone his craft PROVE he can coach

                        as for Walsh? we were never discussing him - but he was a great Player he has transitioned into coaching under Trestman who unless I am mistaken dragged him around the NFL with him - and brought him into the CFL

                        he right now has shown to be a solid technical coach - he needs more CFL experience - and unfortunately I don't think he can progress with McAdoo -

                        but Walsh would have done well to coached at a lower level of Cdn ball prior to becoming a professional CFL coach - as would Jarious Jackson - its not about CAN a QB become a CFL coach - its about is it appropriate to simply become a professional coach - without ever having coached

                        my bias is simply NEVER hire a coach - until they have coached something - this is professional football not Pop Warner - there are plenty of coaches who have proven they can coach - hire one of them - make the player coach at a lower level for a year or two - if they are good then hire them

                        I'm not big into signing track stars or basketball players who have never played football to professional contracts in the CFL either

                        but hiring a guy who had never been a coach before is kind of like handing a rookie player a starting role and a no cut guarantee that he will play 100% of the snaps at that position

                        I wasn't aware of Walsh's past. But I agree that McAdoo is the main problem and will continue to be. My thought process with Ray being asked if he would be interested in coaching the QB's, was to put a coach in place that would be instantly respected for what he has accomplished that could stand up to McAdoo and his play calling in different situations, or with different QB's. I can't help but wonder if McAdoo is the reason Jarious Jackson left.

                        You bring up some valid points Rotor, but the most important thing aside from having the knowledge or experience to make a successful coach is the ability to be a good communicator.Some of you bring up Lulay and Glenn because you see them talking with the other QB's when they are on the sidelines. Those 2 guys are execeptional team guys. I would welcome either of them as well.

                        Hufnagel was not a chatty guy when he was playing, neither was Dickenson, or Khari Jones, I don't recall Jackson talking much either as a player. Actually Huff's demeanor is how I imagine Ray would be.....but it doesn't matter if Ray isn't interested in coaching.

                        I just want that progression Reynolds spoke about when it comes to the OC job. But I don't want to start all over again. I really am sick and tired of not having a top end QB, or any developmental plan for young prospect QB's Do we even have a knowledgeable QB scout....it doesn't appear we do.

                        What if our new head coach realizes McAdoo is the problem we can't put points on the board? What's the progression plan for OC? I know this new staff cap limits what teams can do, but what's the plan if McAdoo has to go?

                        Anyway thanks for the discussion and opinions. I brought up Ray because he is still a free agent and thought he might be thinking of retiring. Glenn still wants to play and Lulay just announced he was retiring. I wouldn't mind seeing anyone of these 3 guys helping our QB's
                        It works for Calgary. It's the one area the Riders have sucked at for years.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by BC Green View Post
                          I wasn't aware of Walsh's past. But I agree that McAdoo is the main problem and will continue to be. My thought process with Ray being asked if he would be interested in coaching the QB's, was to put a coach in place that would be instantly respected for what he has accomplished that could stand up to McAdoo and his play calling in different situations, or with different QB's. I can't help but wonder if McAdoo is the reason Jarious Jackson left.

                          You bring up some valid points Rotor, but the most important thing aside from having the knowledge or experience to make a successful coach is the ability to be a good communicator.Some of you bring up Lulay and Glenn because you see them talking with the other QB's when they are on the sidelines. Those 2 guys are execeptional team guys. I would welcome either of them as well.

                          Hufnagel was not a chatty guy when he was playing, neither was Dickenson, or Khari Jones, I don't recall Jackson talking much either as a player. Actually Huff's demeanor is how I imagine Ray would be.....but it doesn't matter if Ray isn't interested in coaching.

                          I just want that progression Reynolds spoke about when it comes to the OC job. But I don't want to start all over again. I really am sick and tired of not having a top end QB, or any developmental plan for young prospect QB's Do we even have a knowledgeable QB scout....it doesn't appear we do.

                          What if our new head coach realizes McAdoo is the problem we can't put points on the board? What's the progression plan for OC? I know this new staff cap limits what teams can do, but what's the plan if McAdoo has to go?

                          Anyway thanks for the discussion and opinions. I brought up Ray because he is still a free agent and thought he might be thinking of retiring. Glenn still wants to play and Lulay just announced he was retiring. I wouldn't mind seeing anyone of these 3 guys helping our QB's
                          It works for Calgary. It's the one area the Riders have sucked at for years.
                          Jarious Jackson left for a promotion. Thereís no reason to believe the working relationship here had anything to do with it. He was offered a promotion and took it, no different than hundreds of other coaches who have switched teams in the past.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Some perform while others coach and teach how to perform. A few can do both well.

                            My impression is that Calvillo, Ray and Durant are in the perform well category when playing at their peak, but I have never been aware of their doing any kind of mentoring.

                            Perhaps it comes so easily to them that they don't know how to break it down into steps.

                            I think good coaching is quite different from playing. Different skill sets.

                            I endorse the idea of having players who want to coach to do so at a lower level before trying the pro ranks.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by BC Green View Post

                              I just want that progression Reynolds spoke about when it comes to the OC job. But I don't want to start all over again. I really am sick and tired of not having a top end QB, or any developmental plan for young prospect QB's Do we even have a knowledgeable QB scout....it doesn't appear we do.

                              What if our new head coach realizes McAdoo is the problem we can't put points on the board? What's the progression plan for OC? I know this new staff cap limits what teams can do, but what's the plan if McAdoo has to go?

                              Anyway thanks for the discussion and opinions. I brought up Ray because he is still a free agent and thought he might be thinking of retiring. Glenn still wants to play and Lulay just announced he was retiring. I wouldn't mind seeing anyone of these 3 guys helping our QB's
                              It works for Calgary. It's the one area the Riders have sucked at for years.
                              I agree about progression - would love it if the OC were firstly a guy that I like - but then that the QB coach would be a guy that I thought could be a future OC soonish - so if you lose the OC the next 1 is there - but that is difficult as an OC could theoretically be in place 20 years - so you bring in people under like Jarious Jackson and they move on (not that I am a fan of JJ) - so the question is what did Walsh pick up from Trestman about the CFL? - after being in the CFL a couple of years - is he now ready to start capably contributing not only technically but creatively? - if he is not ready at this point he won't be - but we should see some real growth there IMO this year

                              and if he is ready - will McAdoo allow him to contribute? Also Sorrells - been in the CFL a couple years now - improved tremendously from year 1 to 2 I thought - is he also ready to contribute? And I have to be honest I know next to nothing about our RB coach - place holder? capable? I need to find out more about him

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Reading the tea leaves and what Chamblin and Popp had to say about Ray at their Town Hall last nite, I'd say odds are in favour of Ray being done. Argos also went hard after BLM and even Travis Lulay as a potential back up. So that also tells us a lot.

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