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  • Originally posted by Bigsexydawg View Post

    If nobody blinks then there is no football for awhile and I for one don't see the league caving into the player's demands.

    The CFL management aren't like the NFL owners where we are talking cash in their jeans, the CFL management mandate and responsibility is keeping 9 teams above water and containing costs.
    Exactly this... and this is part of the issue with a growing percentage of International players demanding more.... More is fine, if More is sustainable..

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Itzgodzilla View Post

      Exactly this... and this is part of the issue with a growing percentage of International players demanding more.... More is fine, if More is sustainable..
      I suspect the league has offered an X amount SMS increase which includes higher minimums and a small hard money increase left for the current membership. The CFLPA likely wants the increased minimum and a large hard money increase for the current membership.

      Add into the increased health benefits post career and I can see why there is no agreement.
      Rider QB Scrappin in Full Swing

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Itzgodzilla View Post

        Right, but the thing that unified them the most is no longer... The competition in the South that was promising higher base contracts and many additional perks wasn't even able to complete it's inaugural season.... and the other option coming up has already failed once before... The CFL has a much longer, stable history, rivaling that of the NFL... so while the players feel they should be paid more... the league is also looking at what just went on with the AAFL and is hesitant to give the players their demands at the cost of the league as a whole. There is no major influx of money coming in to offset any major increases to either SMS or Benefits.... so it has to come straight from the revenues, and some teams revenues are non-existent.....

        Their ability to stay connected with events has gotten WAY easier with technology now, with heavily benefits the CFLPA and unifying their players... but at the same time... as a parent, you can't just give in when your kids through a temper tantrum because they wanted to eat ice cream for breakfast.... The CFLPA needs to temper their asks to be within reason, and the league, who has been taken steps to improve player safety, improve revenue stability with the Coaching cap, and is looking at new ways of growing revenue, is doign more to help the CFLPA then League offices of the past.

        To go off your bolded, you again are assuming that the league is operating in the same way at the table, despite them actively trying to improve the league, capping operation costs, and announcing in the media that they also want to see minimums raised... the league has said/ done much more leading into this negotiation then any of their predecessors to improve the ground the CFLPA stands on... with the exception of holding bonuses, which wasn't implemented by Ambrosie (but wasn't removed by him either)...

        I'd rather see the CFLPA take a fair offer from the CFL on a shorter CBA (3 years) with most SMS increase being earmarked for increasing minimum salary by 5000 each season, bringing it to 70k by the end of CBA, and if nothign can be figured out on the health care side prior to the deadline then an ammendment be made that breaks it into it's own negotiations with a separate deadline being prior to the season opener, or by mid season depending on how long they feel it will take to come up with some comprehensive targets on costs, conditions, and commitments by both parties.. do players pay into it like a union fee, which is matched by the league? who knows...

        but that might be the best solution... members pay into a pot, controlled by the CFLPA, and the league matches contributions (or maybe x2??)... this means players need to figure out what they want to set aside for their own members, like an insurance... you may not need it, but if you do it is there to help cover... and the CFLPA is the one that controls it and decides who does/doesn't qualify.. that way no bad blood falls onto the league on disputes and such.
        You assume thereís a fair offer from the League coming. Maybe there is. Itís tough to say. I thought Cohon was going to be more reasonable in his approach five years ago. It didnít happen. Iím not so sure you can count on much different from the league this time around.

        I also think a three three year deal that goes part ways probably wonít help much. It just throws the same stones down the path a little and weíll be back here again. Maybe even with them more st odds.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Bigsexydawg View Post

          Their vagueness tells me they want it all and they want it now. Higher minimums, robust health plan and a significant hard money increase on the SMS. The fact they are being vague indicates to me they are scared of losing the fan support. If their demands were realistic or they were actually being hard done by they would have disclosed their case already.
          I would disagree, them being vague actually puts the pressure on the Team ownership. The CFLPA just continues to say we are attempting to negotiate and that puts the pressure on the league to respond. The whole strike vote situation is an example, the CFLPA asked for and got a strike vote, but the league mismanaged the whole thing, by turning around and sending out the letter indicating 5 teams can't strike because they aren't in position to strike (haven't called in arbitrator yet). I am not sure if the league thinks they can force the other 4 teams to follow suit. Another example is the CFLPA saying they wanted to continue the talks but league wanted a break. The league and CFLPA had valid reasons for the break, but again the league was on the defensive.

          Sure there have been players saying not to report or saying we aren't getting enough, but that happens in every league. Ask someone not involved in the process and you will get a response even it isn't being discussed.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by mikejth View Post

            I would disagree, them being vague actually puts the pressure on the Team ownership. The CFLPA just continues to say we are attempting to negotiate and that puts the pressure on the league to respond. The whole strike vote situation is an example, the CFLPA asked for and got a strike vote, but the league mismanaged the whole thing, by turning around and sending out the letter indicating 5 teams can't strike because they aren't in position to strike (haven't called in arbitrator yet). I am not sure if the league thinks they can force the other 4 teams to follow suit. Another example is the CFLPA saying they wanted to continue the talks but league wanted a break. The league and CFLPA had valid reasons for the break, but again the league was on the defensive.

            Sure there have been players saying not to report or saying we aren't getting enough, but that happens in every league. Ask someone not involved in the process and you will get a response even it isn't being discussed.
            The league is under no pressure to respond publicly. It's the CFLPA desperate attempt to maintain fan support. The whole strike vote propoganda was not mishandled. The only it would have been mishandled is threat of a lockout, which of course hasn't happened nor has it even been mentioned. As far as the break goes it was the CFLPA beaking.

            Rider QB Scrappin in Full Swing

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Itzgodzilla View Post

              Right, but the thing that unified them the most is no longer... The competition in the South that was promising higher base contracts and many additional perks wasn't even able to complete it's inaugural season.... and the other option coming up has already failed once before... The CFL has a much longer, stable history, rivaling that of the NFL... so while the players feel they should be paid more... the league is also looking at what just went on with the AAFL and is hesitant to give the players their demands at the cost of the league as a whole. There is no major influx of money coming in to offset any major increases to either SMS or Benefits.... so it has to come straight from the revenues, and some teams revenues are non-existent.....

              Their ability to stay connected with events has gotten WAY easier with technology now, with heavily benefits the CFLPA and unifying their players... but at the same time... as a parent, you can't just give in when your kids through a temper tantrum because they wanted to eat ice cream for breakfast.... The CFLPA needs to temper their asks to be within reason, and the league, who has been taken steps to improve player safety, improve revenue stability with the Coaching cap, and is looking at new ways of growing revenue, is doign more to help the CFLPA then League offices of the past.

              To go off your bolded, you again are assuming that the league is operating in the same way at the table, despite them actively trying to improve the league, capping operation costs, and announcing in the media that they also want to see minimums raised... the league has said/ done much more leading into this negotiation then any of their predecessors to improve the ground the CFLPA stands on... with the exception of holding bonuses, which wasn't implemented by Ambrosie (but wasn't removed by him either)...

              I'd rather see the CFLPA take a fair offer from the CFL on a shorter CBA (3 years) with most SMS increase being earmarked for increasing minimum salary by 5000 each season, bringing it to 70k by the end of CBA, and if nothign can be figured out on the health care side prior to the deadline then an ammendment be made that breaks it into it's own negotiations with a separate deadline being prior to the season opener, or by mid season depending on how long they feel it will take to come up with some comprehensive targets on costs, conditions, and commitments by both parties.. do players pay into it like a union fee, which is matched by the league? who knows...

              but that might be the best solution... members pay into a pot, controlled by the CFLPA, and the league matches contributions (or maybe x2??)... this means players need to figure out what they want to set aside for their own members, like an insurance... you may not need it, but if you do it is there to help cover... and the CFLPA is the one that controls it and decides who does/doesn't qualify.. that way no bad blood falls onto the league on disputes and such.
              There were very few people who actually believed the AAFL was a serious threat to the survival of the CFL. Sure they paid slightly better then the pure rookie coming into the CFL, but how many CFL rookies actually sign a league minimum contract. I would suspect there are somewhere between 5 to 8 players on the season opening roster that are paid the league min. The rest is going to vets or rookies coming in with experience sign for more. So salaries would have been comparable to AAFL. Add to that the AAFL had an out clause for players to jump to the CFL and NFL. The AAFL season would have been over by the time CFL camp starts, so teams would have been able to get players coming in that were in game shape.

              The big part of the problem is there is so much speculation as to what the players want and are asking for it creates to many rumors. Yes they want a raise, who doesn't when they are talking with their bosses, the challenge is they haven't said one way or the other how much they want. In terms of the CFL growing revenue, they have actually done very little.....now that they have admitted that CFL2.0 won't really generate new revenue for the foreseeable future.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Bigsexydawg View Post

                The league is under no pressure to respond publicly. It's the CFLPA desperate attempt to maintain fan support. The whole strike vote propoganda was not mishandled. The only it would have been mishandled is threat of a lockout, which of course hasn't happened nor has it even been mentioned. As far as the break goes it was the CFLPA beaking.
                I agree the league is under no pressure to respond, but the problem is they have and continue to do so. In order for union to strike, they must call a strike vote, they did. According to some they go an overwhelming majority. In terms of the league attempting a lockout, they need to follow the same rules as players striking so any lock out at this time would be illegal.

                As far as the league writing a letter threatening the players from 5 team with loss of the report and pass bonus, was bogus. The league went public with a threatening letter, same as the response to the CFLPA telling players not to confirm travel plans. Ambrosie mishandled that in his media interview and he mishandled shutting down the talks for the two weeks. The last time the league was polished and professional, the CFLPA looked like the child, this time it has flipped.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by mikejth View Post

                  There were very few people who actually believed the AAFL was a serious threat to the survival of the CFL. Sure they paid slightly better then the pure rookie coming into the CFL, but how many CFL rookies actually sign a league minimum contract. I would suspect there are somewhere between 5 to 8 players on the season opening roster that are paid the league min. The rest is going to vets or rookies coming in with experience sign for more. So salaries would have been comparable to AAFL. Add to that the AAFL had an out clause for players to jump to the CFL and NFL. The AAFL season would have been over by the time CFL camp starts, so teams would have been able to get players coming in that were in game shape.

                  The big part of the problem is there is so much speculation as to what the players want and are asking for it creates to many rumors. Yes they want a raise, who doesn't when they are talking with their bosses, the challenge is they haven't said one way or the other how much they want. In terms of the CFL growing revenue, they have actually done very little.....now that they have admitted that CFL2.0 won't really generate new revenue for the foreseeable future.
                  Most assumed the league would sustain itself and fold after year 2 but

                  I do not think you have thought your post through so consider this for a moment

                  - 52,000 cdn vs 85,000 US

                  in CDN terms is 52vs 110 double the salary and yes there are many many imports making less than 110,000 a year

                  in us terms its 40, us vs 85 us

                  now factor in that in the US the wife/significant other can move there with you and be employed - while in Canada they cannot

                  how much do you think that impacts?

                  so the player could make more in the AAFL - pay lower taxes - play less games what was is proposed to be a 10 game season? - allow the spouse/girlfriend to live with them and work

                  not have to leave the US

                  better weather conditions for the most part

                  and do you really think a player can just shrug off a 10 game season and then immediately begin an 18 game season?

                  THe body cannot handle that - many college players hit the wall after game 10 in the CFL - and that is with a full offseason

                  you are proposing essentially a 30 game season with no off time

                  physically not even reasonable

                  any how while most figured they would fold in two years - the CFL is simply lucky that it failed hard and fast

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Dreegking View Post

                    Great. Vote one hour after it's submission, after all have read it. Simple solution.
                    In most cases, the contract has to be expired, and the new offer tabled before a strike vote can happen. I assume that's how the law is written in Alberta and Ontario.
                    “Darian was a very successful player and he did a lot of great things for our organization, but I will tell you that we won’t have an interest in Darian.”
                    - Jeremy O'Day, January 18th 2019

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by mikejth View Post

                      There were very few people who actually believed the AAFL was a serious threat to the survival of the CFL. Sure they paid slightly better then the pure rookie coming into the CFL, but how many CFL rookies actually sign a league minimum contract. I would suspect there are somewhere between 5 to 8 players on the season opening roster that are paid the league min. The rest is going to vets or rookies coming in with experience sign for more. So salaries would have been comparable to AAFL. Add to that the AAFL had an out clause for players to jump to the CFL and NFL. The AAFL season would have been over by the time CFL camp starts, so teams would have been able to get players coming in that were in game shape.

                      The big part of the problem is there is so much speculation as to what the players want and are asking for it creates to many rumors. Yes they want a raise, who doesn't when they are talking with their bosses, the challenge is they haven't said one way or the other how much they want. In terms of the CFL growing revenue, they have actually done very little.....now that they have admitted that CFL2.0 won't really generate new revenue for the foreseeable future.
                      No it did not.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by mikejth View Post

                        There were very few people who actually believed the AAFL was a serious threat to the survival of the CFL. Sure they paid slightly better then the pure rookie coming into the CFL, but how many CFL rookies actually sign a league minimum contract. I would suspect there are somewhere between 5 to 8 players on the season opening roster that are paid the league min. The rest is going to vets or rookies coming in with experience sign for more. So salaries would have been comparable to AAFL. Add to that the AAFL had an out clause for players to jump to the CFL and NFL. The AAFL season would have been over by the time CFL camp starts, so teams would have been able to get players coming in that were in game shape.

                        The big part of the problem is there is so much speculation as to what the players want and are asking for it creates to many rumors. Yes they want a raise, who doesn't when they are talking with their bosses, the challenge is they haven't said one way or the other how much they want. In terms of the CFL growing revenue, they have actually done very little.....now that they have admitted that CFL2.0 won't really generate new revenue for the foreseeable future.
                        I think you should check your facts... there are MANY players making Minimum, some have additional bonuses, but their minimum is at league minimum.

                        Secondly, it matters not how viable fans saw the AAFL... many looked at it as the closest thing to a legitimate threat the CFL has ever faced in a start up. This is 2 fold... first competing for players and viewers, and second is that it emboldened the players. There were very few players that thought it wouldn't make a go of itself, or that it would fold prior to year 2. Alot of the vets who make close to what the AAFL was paying were more then happy to sit back and watch things unfold while on a CFL contract, if the AAFL is around and kicking when their contract is up, maybe take a look, otherwise they were happy here. But it was the rookies and those makign less than 90k Canadian that perked right up and were ready to throwdown with the league when they heard a startup venture was able to pay players 250k US/3 years, for fewer games played.... That is the spark that ignited the argument by EVERYONE to raise the minimum... no one ever considers that ALL their players were making 70k in year 1, with a very select few likely getting a premium.

                        The CFL would have no problem raising the minimum to 90k Canadian is that meant EVERYONE made only minimum (4.14 million for a 46 man roster).... heck 700k for a QB pays for a lot of people when everyone only makes 90k.......


                        So when we look at the damage the AAFL caused... it is less the competition of viewership/fans or the recruiting of players... and more the effect their promises had on the rookies and people's expectations of "viable rookie contracts" that have now shifted... despite the league being shuttered in record time. Players have the idea... they have seen what could be and they a part of what they have seen... running recklessly towards a dream, without care for consequences is a recipe for disaster.



                        Last edited by Itzgodzilla; 05-10-2019, 01:27 PM.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by lerriuqs View Post

                          You assume thereís a fair offer from the League coming. Maybe there is. Itís tough to say. I thought Cohon was going to be more reasonable in his approach five years ago. It didnít happen. Iím not so sure you can count on much different from the league this time around.

                          I also think a three three year deal that goes part ways probably wonít help much. It just throws the same stones down the path a little and weíll be back here again. Maybe even with them more st odds.
                          I am not assuming anything, but that the players have dug in. the only thing that has been released in the media is Ambrosie saying the ownership/league agrees minimums need to be raised (prior to the AAFL folding), The league saying they want to partner up with the players to resolve issues going forward, and the CFLPA saying they want to keep negotiating, but are a long ways from agreeing....

                          To me, the sum of all those things, and the league forcing a "break" in negotiations is that the CFLPA is wanting to be at the table to "negotiate" and the league is also willign to work with them, but the CFLPA isn't giving ground in negotiating, so the league backed away for bit...

                          Classic negotiating tactic, especially when you are not the one with bills piling up... if neither side can agree to terms, and one or both sides aren't willing to move, continuing to sit at a table slinging mud isn't helping either side or relations between them.... so step back, re-compose, re-group, re-focus and get back in fresh with hopefully an attitude to meet at a mutually beneficial point.

                          All we can do is take what is coming into the media we know about, as unless you are a fly on the wall in the room, you know no more then anyone else who reads the media.

                          Dyakowski crashed a Madani interview yesterday on Sportscage and said while they are still not seeing eye to eye on some big issues, he is optimistic things will be signed prior to TC... He also called the talk "productive"... to me that doesn't sound a lot like the League is playing hardball and not willing to concede at all... is a member of the CFLPA is saying talks are productive, then they must feel they are gaining ground on issues. He wouldn't comment on anything specific as he said they agrees not to bargain through the media this time around.

                          Madani on the other hand was quick to sling mud afterwards, and said one of the big issues he is hearing is around global players possibly being mandated roster spots despite being inferior athletes at this time. I can understand players concern as there are a lot of unknowns around the plans for CFL 2.0... Ambrosie is being very tight lipped about it as well, on the finer details at leas and specifics

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Itzgodzilla View Post

                            I am not assuming anything, but that the players have dug in. the only thing that has been released in the media is Ambrosie saying the ownership/league agrees minimums need to be raised (prior to the AAFL folding), The league saying they want to partner up with the players to resolve issues going forward, and the CFLPA saying they want to keep negotiating, but are a long ways from agreeing....

                            To me, the sum of all those things, and the league forcing a "break" in negotiations is that the CFLPA is wanting to be at the table to "negotiate" and the league is also willign to work with them, but the CFLPA isn't giving ground in negotiating, so the league backed away for bit...

                            Classic negotiating tactic, especially when you are not the one with bills piling up... if neither side can agree to terms, and one or both sides aren't willing to move, continuing to sit at a table slinging mud isn't helping either side or relations between them.... so step back, re-compose, re-group, re-focus and get back in fresh with hopefully an attitude to meet at a mutually beneficial point.

                            All we can do is take what is coming into the media we know about, as unless you are a fly on the wall in the room, you know no more then anyone else who reads the media.

                            Dyakowski crashed a Madani interview yesterday on Sportscage and said while they are still not seeing eye to eye on some big issues, he is optimistic things will be signed prior to TC... He also called the talk "productive"... to me that doesn't sound a lot like the League is playing hardball and not willing to concede at all... is a member of the CFLPA is saying talks are productive, then they must feel they are gaining ground on issues. He wouldn't comment on anything specific as he said they agrees not to bargain through the media this time around.

                            Madani on the other hand was quick to sling mud afterwards, and said one of the big issues he is hearing is around global players possibly being mandated roster spots despite being inferior athletes at this time. I can understand players concern as there are a lot of unknowns around the plans for CFL 2.0... Ambrosie is being very tight lipped about it as well, on the finer details at leas and specifics
                            I hope it works out in best interest of everyone. I had the same hopes in 2014. Iím far more skeptical about the possibility though after how that played out then and based on how this appears to be playing out. We shall see.

                            I do believe that the lack of negotiations in public is a good sign at this point.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by lerriuqs View Post

                              I hope it works out in best interest of everyone. I had the same hopes in 2014. Iím far more skeptical about the possibility though after how that played out then and based on how this appears to be playing out. We shall see.

                              I do believe that the lack of negotiations in public is a good sign at this point.
                              I agree, That said... it is hard to make up for years of missed revenue in one shot.... last CBA they had a new TV deal to work with for revenue... this time, not so much...

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by lerriuqs View Post

                                You assume thereís a fair offer from the League coming. Maybe there is. Itís tough to say. I thought Cohon was going to be more reasonable in his approach five years ago. It didnít happen. Iím not so sure you can count on much different from the league this time around.

                                I also think a three three year deal that goes part ways probably wonít help much. It just throws the same stones down the path a little and weíll be back here again. Maybe even with them more st odds.
                                Define fair. 1/3rd of the teams are confirmed profitable (Saks, Wpg and Edm), 1/3rd are generally considered to be losing substantial amounts of money (Tor, Mtl and BC) and the other three question marks (I'm guess Hamilton and Ottawa make profits...Calgary I have idea). Of those 3 teams that publish their numbers, the profit is fairly small - except in year they host a Grey Cup.

                                So what is fair? Is financial sustainability irrelevant in the whole discussion?

                                I think the profitable teams could probably handle a 10% increase in player costs (salary plus benefits etc.) given new cap of football ops. But it would make losses on other teams even deeper. If that 10% number is even remotely accurate, we're talking about a bump of ~$500k per team. ~10k per player on average, but likely a good portion of that ends up going to the guys in the upper echelons and the minimum salary get bumped by $5k at max

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