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CFL/CFLPA Collective Agreement

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  • Originally posted by Jmdirk View Post

    I think a lot of it speaks to very different approaches by Brian Ramsay vs Scott Flory too.
    I would add.....don't count out Ken G. and his influence .

    Comment


    • Originally posted by #1Fan View Post

      I agree 100%. I'd love for the League to offer a decent package to the CFLPA and then retroactively take back a sizable portion to cover the expenses involved in pushing the season back (if that will be the case). I know the CFLPA has "some" business minded folks on it, but do they not understand it's not as easy as just delaying the season? I can't imagine the costs involved (or losses incurred) if the season doesn't start on time. An argument could be made that these expenses are a business expense and should be covered by the league/owners and not the CFLPA. That would make a very compelling argument for the league to then throw back the same risk/reward tactic to CFLPA.
      I think they understand the risks of messing with the season completely. That doesn’t mean they should just roll over and give the league what they want.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Greenwall View Post
        Go players go. Raise those season ticket prices !
        Not going to lie... I cringed a little....

        The CFL is already priced fairly high in a lot of the markets.. and even in the ones where they try to paper the seats with promotions and discounts attendance isn't increasing overall... Players need to temper their asks and refocus on reality... do I think they deserve more money... I think they do... do I think it should all go to the minimum and trickle upwards with what is left.. ABSOLUTELTY. For as much as the CFLPA is crying wolf about minimum salary, they have NO ONE to blame but themselves and their past reps.... they had the power to negotiate increase to minimums before, but the powers that were didn't push for it, instead the extra SMS was always allowed to flow from the top down, with the higher contracts reaping most of the benefit.

        This negotiations has been a perfect storm:

        1) competition from a league in the south gets players in a froth about minimum salaries being at $70k
        2) Competitor then folds due to lack of funds (Irony galore)
        3) CFL QB's are being signed to record contracts since the current SMS structure was put in place.
        4) Another Competitor is looking to start up at the end of this season, giving more hope to players on being able to land/play elsewhere if the CFL is a no go.
        5) CFL looking to expand revenues by changing focus to global CFL 2.0

        Of all those there is only one that I side on the players 100%, and that is the unkown of the Global player initiatives... what is the leagues plans to incorporate Global players?? Are they being deemed "starters" and teams must field at least 2 on the 46? or is it simply a developmental program allowing teams to carry 2 extra PR positions for global players. The league hasn't clarified any of it's vision and players aren't happy negotiating a muti-year CBA that could see things come up in the middle of that affect it's current members.

        I like the CFL 2.0 initiative, I think it is great so far... but Ambrosie is lacking on some fundamental implementation plans, at least in what he is being public about.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by lerriuqs View Post

          I think they understand the risks of messing with the season completely. That doesn’t mean they should just roll over and give the league what they want.
          how do you know that the league isn't already coming in to meet most of their realistic concessions already? Perhaps it is trying to get the harder to balance issues that the CFLPA is holding them on.

          Long term Health benefits are an impossibly complicated thing to sort out, and raising the minimum salary also has other implications other than just saying "the new minimum is X".

          I appreciate the CFLPA takign a stance, but they are trying to make right the wrongs of decades passed in one go... To me, this needs to be done in steps... take a smaller win now, keep the league strong, and have a stipulation that is revenues exceed X or the CFL 2.0 generates X then the CBA will be revisited.

          The players are looking to cut off their nose to spite their face.... Any work stoppage will affect revenue, which in turn affects the leagues ability to pay them what they want... So while the league might be doing some "shady" tactics like withholding bonuses.... the players might not be able to see the forest from the trees if they had money now and were willing to sit part of the season.

          Comment


          • I might be having a senior moment but...... the health care issue . Right now players under contract are under the teams care and get medical attention do they not ? Canadian players after retirement would be like any other Canadian citizen and be covered under present health system as in premiums etc. province to province would they not ? Could the league not pay the retired players health care annual premiums and they be covered like any other " normal " Canadian and receive the same care. The number of International players could receive the dollar value of those premiums paid on behave of the Canadian players and then exist as " normal " under their country they originate from . Would be a good starting point , they could expand as necessary and affordable with possible player contributions to get extended needed coverage .
            Players get at least some monetary benefit immediately that can then expand . ??

            Comment


            • Originally posted by pmurph View Post
              I might be having a senior moment but...... the health care issue . Right now players under contract are under the teams care and get medical attention do they not ? Canadian players after retirement would be like any other Canadian citizen and be covered under present health system as in premiums etc. province to province would they not ? Could the league not pay the retired players health care annual premiums and they be covered like any other " normal " Canadian and receive the same care. The number of International players could receive the dollar value of those premiums paid on behave of the Canadian players and then exist as " normal " under their country they originate from . Would be a good starting point , they could expand as necessary and affordable with possible player contributions to get extended needed coverage .
              Players get at least some monetary benefit immediately that can then expand . ??
              The few hundred per year that certain provinces have to pay in health care premiums would get you virtually nothing south of the border. I wouldn't underestimate how expensive US health care would be for retired athletes. Especially when most insurance companies would exclude conditions as a result of playing football as previously existing conditions.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Itzgodzilla View Post

                how do you know that the league isn't already coming in to meet most of their realistic concessions already? Perhaps it is trying to get the harder to balance issues that the CFLPA is holding them on.

                Long term Health benefits are an impossibly complicated thing to sort out, and raising the minimum salary also has other implications other than just saying "the new minimum is X".

                I appreciate the CFLPA takign a stance, but they are trying to make right the wrongs of decades passed in one go... To me, this needs to be done in steps... take a smaller win now, keep the league strong, and have a stipulation that is revenues exceed X or the CFL 2.0 generates X then the CBA will be revisited.

                The players are looking to cut off their nose to spite their face.... Any work stoppage will affect revenue, which in turn affects the leagues ability to pay them what they want... So while the league might be doing some "shady" tactics like withholding bonuses.... the players might not be able to see the forest from the trees if they had money now and were willing to sit part of the season.
                Of course I don’t know, but given the league’s history in these negotiations, I’d have a tough time believing the league is doing much at all to come to the PA’s position.

                I do think the the league is underestimating the resolve and organization of the players this time around. It wouldn’t surprise me if a deal is done in the next couple of weeks because the players fold but I’m not so sure they will this time. I think they’re better organized. They’ve done their work in getting the players input and getting them informed. There’s a good chance this drags on this time imo. This is is a far more organized, unified message than we’ve seen from them in the past.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Jmdirk View Post

                  The few hundred per year that certain provinces have to pay in health care premiums would get you virtually nothing south of the border. I wouldn't underestimate how expensive US health care would be for retired athletes. Especially when most insurance companies would exclude conditions as a result of playing football as previously existing conditions.
                  I wasn't suggesting it would , but rather just giving an equal amount of monetary gain to each individual player as a start to health care improvement item in the CBA to open the door as a gain for players to be worked on in future . I wouldn't think or expect as a international person to be taken care of by another country when returning home .

                  Comment


                  • I said it months ago and most people said no way. But there is highly likely going to be a work stoppage and the CFL needs to take the players serious. Both sides need to take some concessions.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by lerriuqs View Post

                      Of course I don’t know, but given the league’s history in these negotiations, I’d have a tough time believing the league is doing much at all to come to the PA’s position.

                      I do think the the league is underestimating the resolve and organization of the players this time around. It wouldn’t surprise me if a deal is done in the next couple of weeks because the players fold but I’m not so sure they will this time. I think they’re better organized. They’ve done their work in getting the players input and getting them informed. There’s a good chance this drags on this time imo. This is is a far more organized, unified message than we’ve seen from them in the past.
                      the bolded , I would think the owners / community teams are equally as unified in the bottom line dollar wise .

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by pmurph View Post
                        I might be having a senior moment but...... the health care issue . Right now players under contract are under the teams care and get medical attention do they not ? Canadian players after retirement would be like any other Canadian citizen and be covered under present health system as in premiums etc. province to province would they not ? Could the league not pay the retired players health care annual premiums and they be covered like any other " normal " Canadian and receive the same care. The number of International players could receive the dollar value of those premiums paid on behave of the Canadian players and then exist as " normal " under their country they originate from . Would be a good starting point , they could expand as necessary and affordable with possible player contributions to get extended needed coverage .
                        Players get at least some monetary benefit immediately that can then expand . ??
                        Part of the issue is in the case of serious injury, Huffney as an example and a very real potential to Ricky Ray last season, players are only covered for up to 1 year by the team. So after such time any additional surgeries, treatments, physio required is all on the player. While it may be the rarity, it is also a very big elephant in the room, and a massive concern of the players, who lay their bodies on the line each day on that field.

                        Your suggestions is good, but how do you handle people in and out in 3 years? or do you need to have a career of X years in the CFL to qualify? What happens if you are severely injured in year 2 of your rookie contract and are no longer able to play?

                        There is just too many edge cases and possibilities, especially when considering international and not just national coverage, for this to be an easy solution, and if this is what is holding the CBA up, i'd like to see them put in the CBA that they will continue to work on player long term care as part of the CBA, and split that into it's own negotiations and agreement to be ammended onto the current CBA. This way it gives both sides the time to properly delve into this complex issue and find a solution that it beneficial to the players that also doesn't hurt the stability of the league.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by pmurph View Post

                          the bolded , I would think the owners / community teams are equally as unified in the bottom line dollar wise .
                          The league has always been unified in this. Far easier when you only have eight or nine voices behind the scenes and control the money. They’ve just had to wait for the players to fold. I’m not so sure they will this time.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Itzgodzilla View Post

                            Part of the issue is in the case of serious injury, Huffney as an example and a very real potential to Ricky Ray last season, players are only covered for up to 1 year by the team. So after such time any additional surgeries, treatments, physio required is all on the player. While it may be the rarity, it is also a very big elephant in the room, and a massive concern of the players, who lay their bodies on the line each day on that field.

                            Your suggestions is good, but how do you handle people in and out in 3 years? or do you need to have a career of X years in the CFL to qualify? What happens if you are severely injured in year 2 of your rookie contract and are no longer able to play?

                            There is just too many edge cases and possibilities, especially when considering international and not just national coverage, for this to be an easy solution, and if this is what is holding the CBA up, i'd like to see them put in the CBA that they will continue to work on player long term care as part of the CBA, and split that into it's own negotiations and agreement to be ammended onto the current CBA. This way it gives both sides the time to properly delve into this complex issue and find a solution that it beneficial to the players that also doesn't hurt the stability of the league.
                            All good thoughts . On the one point of injury costs long term . I don't see the players as any different that folks with physical issues after leaving a job either through retirement or other that have longer term needs . Lots of physical jobs have lingering issues. It will be ongoing talks for sure to get better for the players no doubt.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by lerriuqs View Post

                              The league has always been unified in this. Far easier when you only have eight or nine voices behind the scenes and control the money. They’ve just had to wait for the players to fold. I’m not so sure they will this time.
                              If nobody blinks then there is no football for awhile and I for one don't see the league caving into the player's demands.

                              The CFL management aren't like the NFL owners where we are talking cash in their jeans, the CFL management mandate and responsibility is keeping 9 teams above water and containing costs.
                              Rider QB Scrappin in Full Swing

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by lerriuqs View Post

                                Of course I don’t know, but given the league’s history in these negotiations, I’d have a tough time believing the league is doing much at all to come to the PA’s position.

                                I do think the the league is underestimating the resolve and organization of the players this time around. It wouldn’t surprise me if a deal is done in the next couple of weeks because the players fold but I’m not so sure they will this time. I think they’re better organized. They’ve done their work in getting the players input and getting them informed. There’s a good chance this drags on this time imo. This is is a far more organized, unified message than we’ve seen from them in the past.
                                Right, but the thing that unified them the most is no longer... The competition in the South that was promising higher base contracts and many additional perks wasn't even able to complete it's inaugural season.... and the other option coming up has already failed once before... The CFL has a much longer, stable history, rivaling that of the NFL... so while the players feel they should be paid more... the league is also looking at what just went on with the AAFL and is hesitant to give the players their demands at the cost of the league as a whole. There is no major influx of money coming in to offset any major increases to either SMS or Benefits.... so it has to come straight from the revenues, and some teams revenues are non-existent.....

                                Their ability to stay connected with events has gotten WAY easier with technology now, with heavily benefits the CFLPA and unifying their players... but at the same time... as a parent, you can't just give in when your kids through a temper tantrum because they wanted to eat ice cream for breakfast.... The CFLPA needs to temper their asks to be within reason, and the league, who has been taken steps to improve player safety, improve revenue stability with the Coaching cap, and is looking at new ways of growing revenue, is doign more to help the CFLPA then League offices of the past.

                                To go off your bolded, you again are assuming that the league is operating in the same way at the table, despite them actively trying to improve the league, capping operation costs, and announcing in the media that they also want to see minimums raised... the league has said/ done much more leading into this negotiation then any of their predecessors to improve the ground the CFLPA stands on... with the exception of holding bonuses, which wasn't implemented by Ambrosie (but wasn't removed by him either)...

                                I'd rather see the CFLPA take a fair offer from the CFL on a shorter CBA (3 years) with most SMS increase being earmarked for increasing minimum salary by 5000 each season, bringing it to 70k by the end of CBA, and if nothign can be figured out on the health care side prior to the deadline then an ammendment be made that breaks it into it's own negotiations with a separate deadline being prior to the season opener, or by mid season depending on how long they feel it will take to come up with some comprehensive targets on costs, conditions, and commitments by both parties.. do players pay into it like a union fee, which is matched by the league? who knows...

                                but that might be the best solution... members pay into a pot, controlled by the CFLPA, and the league matches contributions (or maybe x2??)... this means players need to figure out what they want to set aside for their own members, like an insurance... you may not need it, but if you do it is there to help cover... and the CFLPA is the one that controls it and decides who does/doesn't qualify.. that way no bad blood falls onto the league on disputes and such.

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