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2nd Boeing 737-8 crash

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  • #16
    Originally posted by RiderHard View Post

    Lion Air crashed due to shoddy mechanical work and incompetent pilots. In my opinion.
    That would be more of a minority opinion. Even considering your theory of a mechanic error in say replacing or not replacing a sensor (on a brand new airplane!) if a plane can suffer ultimate tragedy from one mechanic with one sensor decision, then there's a lot bigger systemic flaws at play. A mechanic forgetting a bolt is normally countered by the 6 other bolts, the anomaly detection systems, the pilot response training, and so on. No modern civil airliner goes down because of one simple part or event.

    As for incompetent pilots, what can be said of a plane design if it's overly sensitive to pilot skill level?
    Last edited by Touchdown; 03-10-2019, 02:28 PM.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by RiderHard View Post

      That article is wrong.

      The plane had an equipment problem on the previous flight, which caused an issue with MCAS. The pilots on the previous flight followed procedures and landed the plane.
      The mechanics did not fix the faulty part, the problem happened again on the next flight. Those pilots did not follow procedures and crashed the plane.

      Interestingly it seems like there was a warning put out by the US Embassy not to fly out of this airport on this day.
      Do you have any info about the gossip that an interim recommendation of using multiple AoA readings to inform MCAS was or wasn't an issue with the latest crash? I'm hesitant to ask about the Embassy anecdote as such things tend to be conspiracy hoax linked or misinterpretations.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Touchdown View Post
        That would be more of a minority opinion. Even considering your theory of a mechanic error in say replacing or not replacing a sensor (on a brand new airplane!) if a plane can suffer ultimate tragedy from one mechanic with one sensor decision, then there's a lot bigger systemic flaws at play. A mechanic forgetting a bolt is normally countered by the 6 other bolts, the anomaly detection systems, the pilot response training, and so on. No modern civil airliner goes down because of one simple part or event.

        As for incompetent pilots, what can be said of a plane design if it's overly sensitive to pilot skill level?
        WOW, a thought out response?

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Touchdown View Post
          That would be more of a minority opinion. Even considering your theory of a mechanic error in say replacing or not replacing a sensor (on a brand new airplane!) if a plane can suffer ultimate tragedy from one mechanic with one sensor decision, then there's a lot bigger systemic flaws at play. A mechanic forgetting a bolt is normally countered by the 6 other bolts, the anomaly detection systems, the pilot response training, and so on. No modern civil airliner goes down because of one simple part or event.

          As for incompetent pilots, what can be said of a plane design if it's overly sensitive to pilot skill level?
          It's actually not a minority opinion, and it will likely be close to what the NTSB reports next year.
          The plane didn't suffer the ultimate tragedy from one sensor decision. A bad sensor caused an incorrect Angle of Attack reading which caused the airplane to trim itself nose down slightly. This would happen every 10 seconds.
          The pilots in that crash re-trimmed the airplane dozens of times, but for some reason didn't disable it, and at the end forgot to re-trim.

          This crash is looking 'similar', there are reports they also had faulty airspeed indications, but I don't think it is the same. This plane had problems climbing right from takeoff.
          If they were taking off with 0 flaps thats 100% pilot error, but I doubt that is what happened, therefore not a MCAS issue as flaps deployed disable that system.

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          • #20
            Just flew across half the Pacific on one of those new 737s ....

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            • #21
              https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/11/afric...ntl/index.html

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              • #22
                Originally posted by danno View Post
                Just flew across half the Pacific on one of those new 737s ....
                What airline?
                Your co-pilot probably had more than 250 hours of total flying time like this flight.
                To put that in perspective, 250 hours is the minimum for a commercial rating. The co-pilot jumped out of a Cessna 152 and into a Boeing.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by RiderHard View Post

                  What airline?
                  Your co-pilot probably had more than 250 hours of total flying time like this flight.
                  To put that in perspective, 250 hours is the minimum for a commercial rating. The co-pilot jumped out of a Cessna 152 and into a Boeing.
                  AC, I wasn't concerned ...

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                  • #24
                    They need to disable of this MCAS system until the investigation is completed. You can't rely on pilots to deal with these critical situation on an overly sensitive control system or faulty device (sensors) especially during take off and landing. The worst part is that was the reason why Boeing didn't publish more details about this system when they quietly introduced it on this new plane.

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                    • #25
                      Sounds like a big part of the problem is a control system that operates very differently than any other one these pilots have ever flown. In the first incident they turned off the autopilot, and missed that there was a second system that had to be turned off as well (because this is the only model they have every flown that worked that way). To the pilots it apparently seems like there is something wrong aerodynamically, and they were fighting against it. That would seem to indicate a lack of training, and a poorly thought through control. I wonder how much training was required for a pilot moving from a previous series 737 to the Max? Was this sold to airlines telling them they did not need extensive pilot training?

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by RiderHard View Post

                        What airline?
                        Your co-pilot probably had more than 250 hours of total flying time like this flight.
                        To put that in perspective, 250 hours is the minimum for a commercial rating. The co-pilot jumped out of a Cessna 152 and into a Boeing.
                        The Lion Air crew had a combined 11,000 hours

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by voice of reason View Post

                          The Lion Air crew had a combined 11,000 hours
                          I was talking about the Ethiopian crash ("this flight"). The co-pilot had around 250 hours total.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by danno View Post

                            AC, I wasn't concerned ...
                            AC is incredible. Such a great airline, even if they donít do goofy jokes on the mic before takeoff lol.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by voice of reason View Post
                              Sounds like a big part of the problem is a control system that operates very differently than any other one these pilots have ever flown. In the first incident they turned off the autopilot, and missed that there was a second system that had to be turned off as well (because this is the only model they have every flown that worked that way). To the pilots it apparently seems like there is something wrong aerodynamically, and they were fighting against it. That would seem to indicate a lack of training, and a poorly thought through control. I wonder how much training was required for a pilot moving from a previous series 737 to the Max? Was this sold to airlines telling them they did not need extensive pilot training?
                              This is mostly wrong. It's all close to correct, but almost everything you said is slightly wrong.
                              The control systems operate no differently. They didn't miss the second system, they turned it off dozens of times but never popped the breaker. To the pilots nothing was wrong aerodynamically, but they had to keep resetting the trim.

                              Lack of training was the only thing you said that was correct.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by RiderHard View Post

                                I was talking about the Ethiopian crash ("this flight"). The co-pilot had around 250 hours total.
                                What about the captain? How many hours did he have? I think insinuating pilot error is premature.

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